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and now on with the show this is

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somewhere in the sky's the Branzburg

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welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm

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your host Ryan Sprague there are many

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accounts of alien abduction that have

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littered the tabloids big and small

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screens and hundreds of books for

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decades now some appear to be completely

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fabricated or just couldn't stand the

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test of scientific or psychological

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rigor but there are those rare cases

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that truly leave even the most skeptical

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of minds utterly baffled today I cover

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an abduction case that has stood the

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test of time and remains one of the most

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interesting and credible accounts to

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date this is the incredible story of

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Betty andresen and the Andreasen affair

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in the city of South Ashe Burnham

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Massachusetts on the night of January

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25th 1967 one of the most celebrated

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cases of UFO abduction began Betty

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Andresen was working in her kitchen

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while her seven children mother and

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father were in the living room shortly

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after 6:30 p.m. the lights in the house

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briefly blinked immediately thereafter a

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reddish light began to being through the

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kitchen window the sudden darkness in

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the house set the kids nerves on edge

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and Betty ran to comfort them her father

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ran into the kitchen to peer out the

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window and find the source of the

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unusual light to his utter shock he saw

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five odd looking beings coming towards

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the house with a hopping motion before

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he could regained his composure he saw

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the beans walk right through the wooden

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door what happened next

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would test the imagination and strength

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of even an open-minded adventurous

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person the entire family was suddenly

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put into a state of suspended animation

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one of the creatures went to Betty's

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father while one of the other four began

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to make telepathic communication

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with Betty he was about five feet tall

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the other four appeared to be around a

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foot shorter all of the beings had a

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pear-shaped head with wide eyes and

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small ears and noses their mouths were

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only slits and never moved though they

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were able to communicate through their

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minds the beings were a type of coverall

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blue in color with a wide belt there

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also was a logo of a bird on their

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sleeves the hands had only three fingers

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and they were boots the creatures did

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not move as a human but floated as they

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went

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Betty would later recall though she was

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frightened that she felt a sense of calm

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even friendship towards the beings the

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creatures were holding Betty's children

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in a frozen state of consciousness but

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when Betty showed concern for them they

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released her eleven-year-old daughter to

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assure her that the children were not

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being harmed Betty was taken by the

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creatures outside to a waiting craft

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which rested on the side of a sloping

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backyard the craft was estimated to be

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about 20 feet in diameter in the classic

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UFO shape of a saucer Betty believes

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that after she was aboard the craft it

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joined a mothership where she underwent

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a physical examination and also was

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subjected to the effects of strange

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equipment after this she was given a

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type of bizarre test which caused her

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pain at first but resulted in a kind of

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religious experience here's an actual

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sound clip of Betty during an interview

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stating what happened during the

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examination took me back to the cubicle

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where they told me to change into my

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regular clothes and from there I was

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escorted into this room that appeared

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one of the chairs to the right and this

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wood glass like hood came down I could

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hear it click around me and then I felt

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very cold as if I was freezing and it

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seemed as if I was there for a very long

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time and from there I was taken and put

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into another chair to the left and again

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this glass like wood came down and

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sealed around me and I couldn't get a

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snap and they also put some tubes in my

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nose and I could hear it as they put

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them into the glass I could hear it seal

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like and also a two-up of my mouth and

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they told me to keep my eyes closed and

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it gave me this reddish color liquid

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cake and it tasted very sweet I felt

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very relaxed from it and meanwhile this

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gray liquid fell down you know was

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falling on my head and it was filling up

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in the bottom of the chair and when it

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was filled it vibrated like a whirlpool

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right about me and from there they

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drained that out the breathing tubes out

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and set me on this track where lunding

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was in front of me and one being was in

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back of me and at this point they had

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their different uniform it was a sort of

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a shiny aluminum type uniform and they

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put two black hoods on their head and we

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went out of this room into a very dark

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black tunnel it seemed as if it was

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chipped out of stone and there were

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other entrances I could tell because

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their uniform sent off like a bright

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light and I could see like darker holes

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[Music]

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approximately four hours later she was

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returned to her home by two of the

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captors when she arrived her entire

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family was still in a state of suspended

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animation one of the creatures had

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stayed in her house evidently to watch

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the other family members after releasing

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the family from the trance-like State

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the creatures left Betty would later

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state that the aliens had hypnotized her

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to not recall any of her experience

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until a designated time to be determined

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later she was able to recall only

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certain things at a time of her

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experience the red light through the

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kitchen window and the beings entering

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the house being two of them but before

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this bizarre happening but he had little

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or no knowledge of UFO folklore and

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being a devoted Christian she believed

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that the abduction had had a religious

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meaning

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it wouldn't be later until she began to

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view the abduction as alien in nature

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eight years later Benny answered an ad

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from dr. J Allen Hynek who was

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soliciting abduction experiences from

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the general public her letter was

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dismissed at the time because of its

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unusual details and it would be January

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1977 when her story would finally be

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fully investigated the investigative

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team assigned to the Andreasen case

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included a solar physicist an

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electronics engineer in aerospace

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engineer a telecommunications

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specialists and a UFO investigator the

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service of hypnotist and a medical

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doctor trained in psychiatry were also

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used

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Betty's case involved 12 months of

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investigation but he was given a

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character reference check to

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lie-detector tests a psychiatric review

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and in excruciating 14 sessions of

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regressive hypnosis small sound bytes of

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the hypnosis sessions have been released

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to the public

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here is a small portion of

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them no I must warn you this may be a

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little disturbing

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[Music]

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like it pulling something that needle

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again with the tools like on the end

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[Music]

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the results of the Andreasen abduction

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case were startling

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Betty along with their daughter we lived

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a detailed account of their experience

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agreeing on all the basic aspects these

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results were eventually published in

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book form by renowned author and

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investigator Raymond Fowler Fowler

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joined the US Air Force in 1952 attended

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a special school for electronic

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espionage after which he was assigned to

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the USAF security service under the

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auspices of the NSA his civilian career

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included work on US government projects

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including the Minuteman project weapon

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system later in life he became very

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interested in the UFO phenomenon and

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would subsequently serve as director of

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scientific investigations for MUFON and

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also as a scientific associate for the

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Center for UFO studies he is

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internationally known as a highly

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competent investigator and a trustworthy

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chronicler in fact J Allen Hynek who

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developed the Hynek UFO classification

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system recognized Fowler as one of the

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most outstanding investigators in the

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UFO field stating that he personally

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knew of no other investigator more

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dedicated trustworthy or persevering as

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Fowler in an interview about the case

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and about his book the undressing affair

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Fowler had this to say the most

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objective investigators in the United

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States

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and I think my buddies who saw me

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produces Pok wondered if I had lost all

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sense of objectivity and I'm really

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going on a limb really as far as my

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reputation goes and and bringing this

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this book is andreas interfere out as I

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mentioned before we decided this was too

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strange to have just one person

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investigated we had a team of five and

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most of this team of five are engaged in

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scientific research and engineering

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research within the civilian civilian

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scientific community and really

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objective people all five investigators

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in their initial individual evaluations

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in this 520 news report indicated that

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they believe that the angriest affair

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involved people who are telling the

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truth who knew it to be and that there

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was a real experience there it was a

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sign that something really is happening

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to these people especially since other

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cases exist similar to this this was

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just a unique case I wouldn't be

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interested all the way to the point or

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all the investigators are saying that

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yes Betty andreasson and Becky Andreasen

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did have a close encounter of the third

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by the Third Kind yes whatever that is

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is a close encounter of the Third Kind

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type stimulus or something like that is

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obviously extraterrestrial but to accept

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the extra-terrestrial hypothesis without

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physical proof would be non-scientific

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now the anthracene affair remains one of

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the best-selling UFO abduction books of

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all time and fouler remains one of the

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most credible abduction researchers as

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well this case is still being

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investigated today and remains one of

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the most controversial bizarre but

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genuine abduction cases of all time but

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I wanted to hear from you guys about

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what you think of this case and just

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exactly what happened to Betty

279
00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:56,050
and her children on that bizarre night

280
00:14:02,129 --> 00:13:59,920
Rob had this to say quote Betty's case

281
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:02,139
is fascinating because it doesn't fit

282
00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:04,240
the normal mold of an abduction case

283
00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:06,550
there were multiple eyewitnesses

284
00:14:10,799 --> 00:14:08,350
involved in the home while they took

285
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:10,809
Betty on board the craft the daughter

286
00:14:15,090 --> 00:14:12,639
was able to relive it through hypnosis

287
00:14:18,030 --> 00:14:15,100
as well as Betty this case has been

288
00:14:20,489 --> 00:14:18,040
heavily investigated and still is and it

289
00:14:24,269 --> 00:14:20,499
has not yet been dismissed

290
00:14:27,389 --> 00:14:24,279
Cate had this to say quote we have much

291
00:14:30,329 --> 00:14:27,399
the aliens want our soul loved many

292
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,339
things we are worth something or they

293
00:14:35,429 --> 00:14:32,800
would just dump us all into the ocean a

294
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very famous experience er once advised

295
00:14:40,769 --> 00:14:38,529
me not to do hypnosis you don't want to

296
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remember that stuff once you become a

297
00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:42,759
famous experience er you're subject to

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00:14:47,009 --> 00:14:45,430
ridicule and rejection from the public

299
00:14:49,379 --> 00:14:47,019
in general take a look at several

300
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:49,389
experiences and how they are treated by

301
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:51,970
the UFO world in general prove it and

302
00:14:56,579 --> 00:14:54,370
they spend their lives proving it and

303
00:14:59,639 --> 00:14:56,589
under attack constantly

304
00:15:01,499 --> 00:14:59,649
David had this to say quote the

305
00:15:04,530 --> 00:15:01,509
Andreasen case is one of the most

306
00:15:06,809 --> 00:15:04,540
important abduction cases thanks in

307
00:15:09,179 --> 00:15:06,819
large part to Raymond Fowler's detailed

308
00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:09,189
investigation it established that there

309
00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:11,529
is a link between alien abduction and

310
00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:14,529
out-of-body or near death experiences

311
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,689
and that the aliens are quite familiar

312
00:15:22,410 --> 00:15:19,360
with the out-of-body realm that their

313
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:22,420
technology may actually operate on quote

314
00:15:29,790 --> 00:15:26,050
both sides of the veil Tim says quote

315
00:15:32,309 --> 00:15:29,800
Betty's case is hugely important to my

316
00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:32,319
mind it calls to question the realist or

317
00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:35,199
the physicalist view of reality itself

318
00:15:40,559 --> 00:15:37,809
which is itself a metaphysical

319
00:15:43,079 --> 00:15:40,569
assumption or starting point rather than

320
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:43,089
the settled science the mainstream

321
00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:45,370
culture would have us believe but in

322
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:48,550
terms of that settled science some are a

323
00:15:53,639 --> 00:15:51,040
bit more skeptical I would say with good

324
00:15:56,670 --> 00:15:53,649
reason Shaun had this to say

325
00:15:58,769 --> 00:15:56,680
quote you need to ask why why would they

326
00:16:01,199 --> 00:15:58,779
pass through a door yet needs surgical

327
00:16:03,569 --> 00:16:01,209
instruments to perform experiments in

328
00:16:07,230 --> 00:16:03,579
terms of these creatures as a scientist

329
00:16:09,929 --> 00:16:07,240
I always ask why before I even ponder if

330
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:09,939
something did happen why would aliens

331
00:16:14,249 --> 00:16:11,290
who are apparently trying to be

332
00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:14,259
incognito light up their ships like a

333
00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:16,569
Goodyear blimp at a football game

334
00:16:19,980 --> 00:16:18,670
why pass through doors when they can

335
00:16:22,530 --> 00:16:19,990
just open them

336
00:16:24,780 --> 00:16:22,540
why freeze people in place when they

337
00:16:27,569 --> 00:16:24,790
could just sedate them if it doesn't

338
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:27,579
make sense it probably didn't happen

339
00:16:32,549 --> 00:16:29,410
that way and then we have the words of

340
00:16:35,579 --> 00:16:32,559
Tristan in an article from bizarre and

341
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:35,589
grotesque calm Tristan has this to say

342
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:37,360
quote Betty's description of her

343
00:16:41,730 --> 00:16:39,910
abductors is strange and inconsistent

344
00:16:44,249 --> 00:16:41,740
over the years but he went from

345
00:16:47,129 --> 00:16:44,259
describing the aliens eyes as white with

346
00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:47,139
pupils to being entirely black like the

347
00:16:52,019 --> 00:16:49,209
aliens in Close Encounters of the Third

348
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:52,029
Kind the uniforms the aliens wore also

349
00:16:56,009 --> 00:16:53,410
don't make much sense

350
00:16:58,980 --> 00:16:56,019
according to Betty they wore heavy boots

351
00:17:01,410 --> 00:16:58,990
but what would have been the point since

352
00:17:03,869 --> 00:17:01,420
the aliens apparently floated everywhere

353
00:17:05,909 --> 00:17:03,879
furthermore hypnosis sessions and

354
00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:05,919
recovered memories are notoriously

355
00:17:11,939 --> 00:17:08,740
unreliable and should not be taken as

356
00:17:12,569 --> 00:17:11,949
serious proof that an abduction actually

357
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:12,579
happened

358
00:17:19,409 --> 00:17:15,850
Tristan also says that quote in February

359
00:17:22,110 --> 00:17:19,419
of 2007 Betty and Bob Lucas son Robert

360
00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:22,120
jr. announced that the Andreasen affair

361
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:26,260
was a hoax in a 2000 word email Robert

362
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:28,390
Jr claimed that his father was a

363
00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:30,850
compulsive liar who had a drinking

364
00:17:33,779 --> 00:17:31,390
problem

365
00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:33,789
according to Robert jr. Betty had been

366
00:17:38,669 --> 00:17:36,340
experiencing emotional shock because her

367
00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:38,679
two sons had earlier died in a car

368
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:40,809
accident after meeting her second

369
00:17:46,019 --> 00:17:43,210
husband but he would write about every

370
00:17:48,419 --> 00:17:46,029
dream she had as though it were an

371
00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:48,429
abduction and Bob encouraged her and

372
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:51,220
even manipulated investigators into

373
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:54,610
believing the story so there's clearly

374
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:58,080
more to this entire aundrea sin affair

375
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:00,000
meets the eye but I wanted to hear what

376
00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:01,890
someone who researched the alien

377
00:18:06,769 --> 00:18:03,960
abduction phenomenon with clear and

378
00:18:09,259 --> 00:18:06,779
objective approaches haven't even worked

379
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:09,269
side by side for many years with claimed

380
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:12,090
abduction researcher but Hopkins so now

381
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:14,490
to give us a bit more insight and his

382
00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:16,860
personal thoughts on the case here is my

383
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,320
mentor and our special guest Peter

384
00:18:23,330 --> 00:18:21,360
Robbins thank you for joining me today

385
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:23,340
on someone the skies to talk about this

386
00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:27,450
I'm glad to Ryan so I guess let's start

387
00:18:31,549 --> 00:18:29,640
with what what sort of knowledge do you

388
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:31,559
have of this case Peter I know that it

389
00:18:36,379 --> 00:18:34,350
is from the peripheral as it were but

390
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:36,389
this is one of the more fascinating

391
00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:39,090
cases and you've been a part of some

392
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:40,980
extremely fascinated in abduction cases

393
00:18:45,649 --> 00:18:43,110
having worked with Budd Hopkins as well

394
00:18:48,169 --> 00:18:45,659
but in terms of the undressing affair

395
00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:48,179
where does this case land in your

396
00:18:57,799 --> 00:18:52,980
opinion very high up one thing that we

397
00:19:00,740 --> 00:18:57,809
need to take stock of here is where this

398
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:00,750
case T is the most dispassionate term

399
00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:03,600
possible for life-changing human affairs

400
00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:04,740
to put it mildly

401
00:19:12,769 --> 00:19:07,260
where it sits in the history of ufology

402
00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:12,779
it was in 1967 that Betty Andreasen had

403
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:16,230
the experience that ultimately became

404
00:19:22,460 --> 00:19:19,440
the core of the case but she didn't

405
00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:22,470
contact anybody about it for another

406
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:25,350
eight years it wasn't until 1975 that

407
00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:27,450
she wrote a letter to the best known

408
00:19:33,379 --> 00:19:29,820
person in the world regarding UFOs at

409
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:33,389
the time dr. Allen Hynek and Hynek who

410
00:19:39,620 --> 00:19:36,720
I'm sure had a very busy schedule de

411
00:19:42,169 --> 00:19:39,630
Muir in that he simply put the letter

412
00:19:44,690 --> 00:19:42,179
aside like many letters and not on like

413
00:19:46,519 --> 00:19:44,700
memories of working with but over the

414
00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:46,529
years when something didn't really seem

415
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:50,070
to be a priority also in 1975 the whole

416
00:19:55,970 --> 00:19:53,490
study of abductions per se

417
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:55,980
was in its infancy the general attitude

418
00:20:01,700 --> 00:19:59,120
of the UFO research community

419
00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:01,710
internationally as far as I'm concerned

420
00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:04,289
was lights in the night sky radar

421
00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:07,080
returns physical traces doing all you

422
00:20:11,820 --> 00:20:09,600
could at best to appear like a

423
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:11,830
responsible grown-up because any

424
00:20:17,009 --> 00:20:14,080
responsible grown-up who claim to have a

425
00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:17,019
serious interested in UFOs was already

426
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:18,880
setting themselves up as something of a

427
00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:22,510
social oxymoron and Hynek understood

428
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:24,820
that there was ridicule attached to this

429
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,760
factor if one started talking about the

430
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:29,919
beings in start inside of the craft

431
00:20:35,159 --> 00:20:33,250
there was fuel for ridicule them as dave

432
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:35,169
jacobs once said to me and i'm

433
00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:37,570
paraphrasing here all of our attention

434
00:20:42,299 --> 00:20:39,820
was focused on the cars and none on the

435
00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:42,309
drivers the fact is this book came out

436
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:46,750
in 1979 a full two years before Budd

437
00:20:51,980 --> 00:20:49,090
Hopkins missing time which puts it in a

438
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:51,990
very special place also it was

439
00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:56,200
researched as dr. Hynek tells us by one

440
00:21:00,450 --> 00:20:58,210
of the original research team members

441
00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:00,460
that worked with him when he returned

442
00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:02,049
his attention to that letter and

443
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:04,600
realized this had potential tremendous

444
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:07,450
importance he asked Fowler Raymond

445
00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:09,010
Fowler if he would lead the

446
00:21:14,129 --> 00:21:11,350
investigation and Fowler did a brilliant

447
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:14,139
job and his name is a very important one

448
00:21:18,539 --> 00:21:17,110
in UFO studies if your entry-level and

449
00:21:20,759 --> 00:21:18,549
trying to familiarize yourself with the

450
00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:20,769
literature or have a particular interest

451
00:21:25,259 --> 00:21:22,840
in the subject of abductions Raymond

452
00:21:28,529 --> 00:21:25,269
Fowler who is still very much with us

453
00:21:33,659 --> 00:21:28,539
but retired from the work was a such a

454
00:21:35,669 --> 00:21:33,669
careful analytical scientific pragmatic

455
00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:35,679
researcher in the way that he progressed

456
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:38,320
in his work at the same time we learn

457
00:21:43,259 --> 00:21:41,200
years after the fact because he keeps

458
00:21:46,529 --> 00:21:43,269
writing and there is the Andreasen

459
00:21:49,710 --> 00:21:46,539
affair the Andreasen affair part two the

460
00:21:52,139 --> 00:21:49,720
Andreasen legacy and then a more general

461
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:52,149
book on abductions inspired by the

462
00:21:58,409 --> 00:21:55,360
Andreasen studies called the Watchers he

463
00:22:01,620 --> 00:21:58,419
lays out for us in very analytical terms

464
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:01,630
why he takes this case so seriously and

465
00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:04,960
runs it through rigorous testing in fact

466
00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:06,220
one of the things that caught me

467
00:22:12,389 --> 00:22:09,480
off-guard was leading up to his

468
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,399
stupendous research on the Andreas and

469
00:22:17,639 --> 00:22:14,320
incidents because there are many of them

470
00:22:19,889 --> 00:22:17,649
dr. Hynek and his team did an exhaustive

471
00:22:23,129 --> 00:22:19,899
investigation of betty andreas ins

472
00:22:25,529 --> 00:22:23,139
claims interviewing family members her

473
00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:25,539
husband bob had had a

474
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:27,340
experience when he was young and one

475
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:28,960
later in life

476
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:32,080
her daughter their daughter Becky had

477
00:22:39,239 --> 00:22:35,049
had experiences with her mom and they

478
00:22:43,469 --> 00:22:39,249
looked at everything the psychiatric

479
00:22:45,479 --> 00:22:43,479
examinations stress analysis checks on

480
00:22:47,849 --> 00:22:45,489
her character analysis of the weather

481
00:22:50,609 --> 00:22:47,859
reports of the days that she said the

482
00:22:53,009 --> 00:22:50,619
weather was such-and-such and supporting

483
00:22:56,820 --> 00:22:53,019
testimony of other observers it turned

484
00:22:59,899 --> 00:22:56,830
out to be a 528 page single-spaced

485
00:23:03,359 --> 00:22:59,909
report I mean the initial investigation

486
00:23:07,259 --> 00:23:03,369
before Fowler began to focus in on it

487
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:07,269
for years is really worth a great deal

488
00:23:15,719 --> 00:23:12,970
of respect also again this is 1979 now

489
00:23:19,139 --> 00:23:15,729
in general UFO studies the abduction

490
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:19,149
subject is taken very seriously in I

491
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:21,369
guess in a way UFO counterculture

492
00:23:27,229 --> 00:23:23,710
there's a strong trend which I

493
00:23:30,749 --> 00:23:27,239
understand to look at things from more a

494
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:30,759
Jacques Vallee pioneered point of view

495
00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:35,710
or the more anomalous aspects of the

496
00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:38,049
theories of what UFOs are and the

497
00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:40,590
intelligences behind them ultimately

498
00:23:46,529 --> 00:23:44,440
Fowler in his work has no where to go

499
00:23:51,539 --> 00:23:46,539
except to marry and to a degree the

500
00:23:54,749 --> 00:23:51,549
world of hard ufos so to say and the

501
00:23:56,879 --> 00:23:54,759
world of parapsychology and the

502
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:56,889
confirmed and reconfirmed and reconfirm

503
00:24:04,499 --> 00:24:00,960
facts that in the Andreasen and other

504
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:04,509
significant cases those two aspects of

505
00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:07,210
individuals lives often intertwine and

506
00:24:12,869 --> 00:24:09,580
wanted to read just one quick quote from

507
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:12,879
the introduction to the Andreasen affair

508
00:24:19,049 --> 00:24:16,330
only because now it seems so passe but

509
00:24:22,049 --> 00:24:19,059
at that time even for a figure as

510
00:24:26,399 --> 00:24:22,059
respected as allen hynek i think it took

511
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:26,409
great courage to say which is okay a

512
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:28,570
former book by mr. fowler UFOs

513
00:24:34,289 --> 00:24:31,210
interplanetary visitors upholds this

514
00:24:36,239 --> 00:24:34,299
more popular concept of ufos and many of

515
00:24:39,030 --> 00:24:36,249
the cases he describes tend to give

516
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:39,040
strong support to that hypothesis

517
00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:41,770
but here we have creatures of light who

518
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:45,040
find walls no obstacle to free passage

519
00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:47,710
into rooms and who find no difficulty in

520
00:24:52,530 --> 00:24:50,080
answering uncanny control over the

521
00:24:54,750 --> 00:24:52,540
witness's Minds if this represents an

522
00:24:57,660 --> 00:24:54,760
advanced technology then it must

523
00:25:00,090 --> 00:24:57,670
incorporate the paranormal just as our

524
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:00,100
own incorporates transistors and

525
00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:03,130
computers end quote he says ensure that

526
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:06,190
they have mastered the puzzle of mind

527
00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:09,610
over matter and again that was kind of

528
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:12,430
reshaped me up when I was just preparing

529
00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:14,950
for this interview how different the

530
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:17,950
times were from here Fowler and his team

531
00:25:25,620 --> 00:25:22,030
go on to document a brilliantly analyzed

532
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:25,630
and researched life history we also find

533
00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:30,010
that the Watchers the beings as betty

534
00:25:35,850 --> 00:25:32,590
describes them have an agenda that

535
00:25:38,610 --> 00:25:35,860
although their interactions are often

536
00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:38,620
very frightening to her they have a

537
00:25:44,220 --> 00:25:41,620
message for Humanity it's not unlike

538
00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:44,230
certain biblical messages or contactee

539
00:25:48,650 --> 00:25:46,660
messages we're messing up we need help

540
00:25:51,630 --> 00:25:48,660
and we're not giving it to ourselves

541
00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:51,640
there's a fair amount of what I would

542
00:25:56,790 --> 00:25:54,190
call channeling involved a great deal of

543
00:25:59,490 --> 00:25:56,800
regressive hypnosis that seems extremely

544
00:26:02,940 --> 00:25:59,500
responsible and well done but it's quite

545
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:02,950
an epic and if you superimpose upon it a

546
00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:07,570
book from almost ten years later but

547
00:26:14,670 --> 00:26:11,740
Hopkins intruders from 1987 about Debby

548
00:26:17,490 --> 00:26:14,680
Jordan Debby Jordan cabals experience

549
00:26:21,270 --> 00:26:17,500
you see almost template other important

550
00:26:24,090 --> 00:26:21,280
cases and analysis of claims of

551
00:26:25,860 --> 00:26:24,100
abductees have followed of course but I

552
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:25,870
give a great deal of credit to Fowler

553
00:26:31,470 --> 00:26:29,320
and I can't say I know Betty we've met a

554
00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:31,480
number of times and have a very cordial

555
00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:34,120
acquaintance ship I was scheduled to see

556
00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:36,550
her last month but a health problem

557
00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:39,280
caused her to have to cancel out of the

558
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:40,750
conference that she's going to speak at

559
00:26:44,970 --> 00:26:42,730
so I am looking forward to seeing her

560
00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:44,980
again I know that she and Bob have their

561
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:48,580
own book out now which I am sure will

562
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:52,150
add to the important contactee and

563
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:52,720
abductive

564
00:26:57,299 --> 00:26:54,970
literature that we have available to us

565
00:26:59,220 --> 00:26:57,309
one of the things I wanted to touch on a

566
00:27:01,700 --> 00:26:59,230
little bit Peter is that that idea of

567
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:01,710
the paranormal you know I know that you

568
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:04,000
personally worked with but on a case

569
00:27:11,549 --> 00:27:08,110
where a woman was literally floated out

570
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:11,559
of a solid wall out of a window and onto

571
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:14,650
a craft now we have this claim by Betty

572
00:27:19,770 --> 00:27:18,010
that her family when she was in her

573
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:19,780
house and being taken that they were

574
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:22,809
left in a suspended animation that they

575
00:27:27,870 --> 00:27:25,450
all were just frozen and that one of the

576
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:27,880
creatures actually stayed behind to

577
00:27:32,460 --> 00:27:30,130
watch after them so this whole idea of

578
00:27:35,549 --> 00:27:32,470
the paranormal being involved with in a

579
00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:35,559
UFO case really struck me this is why a

580
00:27:39,899 --> 00:27:37,630
lot of people consider this case very

581
00:27:42,539 --> 00:27:39,909
bizarre and many people consider Linda's

582
00:27:45,210 --> 00:27:42,549
case Linda Cortile a very bizarre case

583
00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:45,220
as well do you see any sort of

584
00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:47,830
connecting or similar things between

585
00:27:54,029 --> 00:27:51,400
these two cases sure first the obvious

586
00:27:57,090 --> 00:27:54,039
that these are two women who were

587
00:28:01,169 --> 00:27:57,100
repeatedly taken from their places of

588
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:01,179
residence through solid walls or windows

589
00:28:08,669 --> 00:28:04,570
in in Linda's case which is the subject

590
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:08,679
of Budd Hopkins 1996 book witnessed the

591
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:10,450
true story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO

592
00:28:17,419 --> 00:28:13,570
abductions it would be one thing if it

593
00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:17,429
was this woman's account on her own and

594
00:28:24,090 --> 00:28:22,120
to add outrageousness that she lives in

595
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:24,100
lower Manhattan very close to the

596
00:28:30,930 --> 00:28:27,039
Brooklyn Bridge and that the circular

597
00:28:32,430 --> 00:28:30,940
glowing UFO that she sought but nobody

598
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:32,440
else happened to even though it's 2:00

599
00:28:35,070 --> 00:28:33,039
in the morning

600
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:35,080
it's Manhattan that would be outrageous

601
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:39,520
the fact is that several other several

602
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:42,880
dozen independent individuals who we

603
00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:45,330
were able to confirm were actual people

604
00:28:52,590 --> 00:28:50,440
observed that glowing disk over there

605
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:52,600
building around lower Manhattan Budd

606
00:28:57,180 --> 00:28:55,210
Hopkins being a well-known figure in UFO

607
00:28:59,370 --> 00:28:57,190
investigation at that time in a public

608
00:29:02,669 --> 00:28:59,380
person would be a likely person to

609
00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:02,679
receive correspondence on this and this

610
00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:04,870
was a case that I worked with him for

611
00:29:09,210 --> 00:29:05,800
long

612
00:29:12,390 --> 00:29:09,220
and with the deeper involvement than any

613
00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:12,400
other event in the years that I was his

614
00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:14,830
assistant in fact it was six regular

615
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:18,700
years it was 89 that he begins and began

616
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:21,010
his investigation and again six years

617
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:23,260
later that the book was published when

618
00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:26,950
several dozen people write to you you

619
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:29,920
being but and they say were they making

620
00:29:33,210 --> 00:29:31,930
a movie I saw it from the Brooklyn

621
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:33,220
Bridge I saw it from the West Side

622
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:35,290
Highway I saw it from the loading dock

623
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:36,910
of the New York Post or wherever and

624
00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:39,490
this is what they it looked like during

625
00:29:43,770 --> 00:29:40,960
this investigation one of the most

626
00:29:46,860 --> 00:29:43,780
exciting parts for me and I think but in

627
00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:46,870
a very quiet researchy way is that many

628
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:49,060
of these letters all this again you know

629
00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:52,570
pre-internet actual letters sent from

630
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:54,870
different postal addresses with

631
00:30:00,450 --> 00:29:57,730
different handwriting's etc most of them

632
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:00,460
and many of them included drawings but

633
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:03,130
and I being trained artists found it

634
00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:05,470
doubly moving because normally a witness

635
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:08,470
drawing overwhelmingly the chances are

636
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:11,200
that it's done by an untrained hand but

637
00:30:16,830 --> 00:30:13,600
one thing is almost certain there's a

638
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:16,840
great deal of intention in the drawing

639
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:20,290
if it's not you know beautifully

640
00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:23,380
rendered it's done with great integrity

641
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:25,270
and attention to detail

642
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:27,910
sometimes things are labeled in this

643
00:30:34,860 --> 00:30:30,960
case there was a specific color sequence

644
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:34,870
to these craft to the craft and every

645
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:37,120
single drawing captured the shape and

646
00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:39,310
the color sequence from different

647
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:42,070
locations in lower Manhattan again this

648
00:30:47,490 --> 00:30:44,110
is what we call circumstantial evidence

649
00:30:49,410 --> 00:30:47,500
but when added to a growing stack of

650
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:49,420
very credible circumstantial evidence

651
00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:51,760
and then physical evidence etc you have

652
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:53,230
the makings of a very important

653
00:31:00,240 --> 00:30:56,980
investigation all abductees that I've

654
00:31:03,180 --> 00:31:00,250
spent time with are told things in their

655
00:31:05,730 --> 00:31:03,190
heads and some of them obviously willing

656
00:31:08,580 --> 00:31:05,740
to share them many of them very much the

657
00:31:13,290 --> 00:31:08,590
same seemingly word-for-word in certain

658
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:13,300
cases and I think that cuts across major

659
00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:15,970
abduction studies if we wanted to dig

660
00:31:19,310 --> 00:31:18,550
and pick I'm sure we could draw quite a

661
00:31:21,950 --> 00:31:19,320
number of pair

662
00:31:22,790 --> 00:31:21,960
else between Linda's case and Betty's

663
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:22,800
case for sure

664
00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:25,770
right and another big aspect of Betty's

665
00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:27,960
case in particular Peter is this idea of

666
00:31:33,980 --> 00:31:30,420
spirituality playing a very big role in

667
00:31:36,380 --> 00:31:33,990
this know a lot of people they know that

668
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:36,390
Betty is very Christian a very

669
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:39,210
practicing religious person and the

670
00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:41,490
displayed a big role in her perception

671
00:31:45,860 --> 00:31:43,470
of what happened to her the being of

672
00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:45,870
light you know that this godly figure

673
00:31:49,670 --> 00:31:48,150
almost that she believes gave her these

674
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:49,680
messages now hmm

675
00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:51,840
I'm sure you've come across this in your

676
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:53,790
abduction research and working with

677
00:31:59,300 --> 00:31:56,730
abductees as well that a lot of them do

678
00:32:02,030 --> 00:31:59,310
see this as either an angelic experience

679
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:02,040
or something extremely spiritual I know

680
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:05,010
I have come across several experiencers

681
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:07,290
who who claim that even a UFO sighting

682
00:32:11,510 --> 00:32:09,450
was something angelic no what do you

683
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:11,520
make of this whole aspect of Betty's

684
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:14,370
case hey guys I have to interrupt this

685
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:16,170
week's interview for just a moment to

686
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:18,030
remind you once again that somewhere in

687
00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:19,860
the skies is brought to you by the

688
00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:22,200
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689
00:32:26,180 --> 00:32:24,030
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690
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:26,190
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691
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692
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693
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694
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695
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696
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697
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698
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699
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700
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701
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702
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703
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704
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705
00:33:07,810 --> 00:33:05,730
back to the show as she said that last

706
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:07,820
part my first thought was a very

707
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:11,340
important case if you will not so much

708
00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:13,770
for you follow G but for the Christian

709
00:33:21,410 --> 00:33:17,030
religion is the famous miracle of Fatima

710
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:21,420
these uneducated Shepherd children who

711
00:33:29,050 --> 00:33:25,290
observed what they called a a vision of

712
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:29,060
the mother Mary Virgin Mary in the sky

713
00:33:35,090 --> 00:33:31,770
has become a huge part

714
00:33:38,090 --> 00:33:35,100
of the miracles of the Catholic Church

715
00:33:41,090 --> 00:33:38,100
from the early 20th century in this case

716
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:41,100
however in the accounts very well

717
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:43,440
documented of the time when they're

718
00:33:48,530 --> 00:33:46,410
specifically asked to describe what that

719
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:48,540
vision looked like they don't describe

720
00:33:55,580 --> 00:33:51,410
the face of a beatific beautiful

721
00:34:00,170 --> 00:33:55,590
shrouded woman in the sky they describe

722
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:00,180
a huge glowing circle I am of a mind

723
00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:03,090
after more than 40 years of looking at

724
00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:05,600
this subject from different angles that

725
00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:09,030
there are variables that we may never be

726
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:11,820
able to pin down we know as well as we

727
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:15,890
can that they these other particular

728
00:34:20,990 --> 00:34:18,390
intelligences they have the power or the

729
00:34:23,870 --> 00:34:21,000
technology or the psychic abilities or

730
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:23,880
whatever the mechanism is to put certain

731
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:26,610
things in the minds of the human beings

732
00:34:33,350 --> 00:34:29,250
they interact with either what they may

733
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:33,360
be thinking feeling or seeing also and

734
00:34:39,620 --> 00:34:37,110
if that's so then perhaps that is what

735
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:39,630
they these individuals are seeing what

736
00:34:43,580 --> 00:34:41,520
we would call a screen memory rather

737
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:43,590
than what is actually in front of them

738
00:34:50,570 --> 00:34:48,000
or what is actually in front of them but

739
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:50,580
then there's a third variable that some

740
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:52,530
of our colleagues don't really take into

741
00:34:58,610 --> 00:34:56,370
consideration I do for more than 20 odd

742
00:35:01,820 --> 00:34:58,620
years because I worked for years in

743
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:01,830
crisis intervention and part of our

744
00:35:06,830 --> 00:35:03,090
training was to understand the

745
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:06,840
physiology of human shock and if you're

746
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:09,810
looking at something that you absolutely

747
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:13,970
cannot accept in a total shock situation

748
00:35:19,220 --> 00:35:16,740
the mind is a powerful and in its own

749
00:35:21,380 --> 00:35:19,230
way wonderful thing and will mask that

750
00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:21,390
memory either it will become the

751
00:35:25,970 --> 00:35:23,430
repressed memory of your life or one of

752
00:35:29,090 --> 00:35:25,980
them or it will emerge at a time that

753
00:35:32,420 --> 00:35:29,100
you can deal with it either coaxed out

754
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:32,430
or or naturally making itself a parent

755
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:34,500
so with those three understandings

756
00:35:39,980 --> 00:35:37,020
number one I'm damned if I know which

757
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:39,990
one it is for Betty or which combination

758
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:43,530
of them what I do know is that in the

759
00:35:47,570 --> 00:35:45,060
case of Betty Andreas and

760
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:47,580
person that I know a little and like

761
00:35:52,910 --> 00:35:49,710
very much yes she is a religious

762
00:35:56,510 --> 00:35:52,920
Christian as is her husband and they

763
00:35:59,540 --> 00:35:56,520
draw peace and comfort and positive

764
00:36:03,170 --> 00:35:59,550
aspects of their life from those deeply

765
00:36:05,420 --> 00:36:03,180
entrenched beliefs I think in life which

766
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:05,430
can be tough enough if something serves

767
00:36:11,230 --> 00:36:07,680
you it's not necessary to push too hard

768
00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:11,240
and ask questions as to why or how

769
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:13,500
especially in the spiritual realm

770
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:16,110
god bless Betty and Bob I I know that

771
00:36:19,250 --> 00:36:17,610
they have been through tragedies in

772
00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:19,260
their life that would absolutely waste

773
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:22,500
other people and that their belief in

774
00:36:27,590 --> 00:36:25,290
Jesus and and the tenants that he taught

775
00:36:30,050 --> 00:36:27,600
have helped get them through and move on

776
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:30,060
and live full lives so I almost don't

777
00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:32,010
care it's interesting because there was

778
00:36:36,620 --> 00:36:34,500
a time in my work that that was the

779
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:36,630
driving force which are these things is

780
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:39,710
it well any of the above and all and

781
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:42,770
that's what we have here a situation

782
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:46,650
where the paranormal the hard reality of

783
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:50,400
UFOs traditional Christian beliefs come

784
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:52,590
together in a matrix it's important to

785
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:56,160
note also that during the writing of

786
00:37:00,560 --> 00:36:58,320
these two books that in his

787
00:37:03,470 --> 00:37:00,570
investigative work with dr. Hynek

788
00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:03,480
beforehand Raymond Fowler never made

789
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:05,640
public the fact that he did later in

790
00:37:10,850 --> 00:37:08,730
life that he was an abductee very much

791
00:37:13,490 --> 00:37:10,860
in the spirit that Kathleen Martin did

792
00:37:15,860 --> 00:37:13,500
not make that public earlier in life I

793
00:37:18,590 --> 00:37:15,870
think they both understood innately that

794
00:37:20,210 --> 00:37:18,600
it would be a distraction it would be

795
00:37:22,220 --> 00:37:20,220
something that naysayers and

796
00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:22,230
ankle-biters would pick at and try to

797
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:25,320
find meaning in also Raymond Fowler is

798
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:29,820
also a very Christian man and I say that

799
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:31,770
with a capital C and with all respect

800
00:37:38,420 --> 00:37:35,730
and for me part of my admiration for him

801
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:38,430
as an investigative writer in a very

802
00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:40,560
complex subject to put it mildly

803
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:43,560
is that his work straight through his

804
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:45,810
career is completely analytical it

805
00:37:50,990 --> 00:37:48,570
reminds me of one of the most important

806
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:51,000
lessons I felt that was passed on to me

807
00:37:56,450 --> 00:37:54,000
by one of my three major mentors when I

808
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:56,460
started Colonel retired common bond

809
00:38:01,729 --> 00:37:57,839
cadets key

810
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:01,739
as a Hungarian I think 99% of whom are

811
00:38:06,219 --> 00:38:03,930
Catholics and Coleman went to church on

812
00:38:09,099 --> 00:38:06,229
Sunday he practiced his religion

813
00:38:14,269 --> 00:38:09,109
religiously but he had no patience for

814
00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:14,279
people having their scientific UFO

815
00:38:20,959 --> 00:38:17,430
research informed by the kind of

816
00:38:23,209 --> 00:38:20,969
mysticism that he felt did not help us

817
00:38:25,459 --> 00:38:23,219
understand the nature of the subject

818
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:25,469
that we were dealing with again if

819
00:38:29,779 --> 00:38:27,390
anything now an even more complex

820
00:38:33,279 --> 00:38:29,789
subject with so many people looking at

821
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:33,289
the whole UFO phenomena from a decidedly

822
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:35,640
religious quasi religious sort of matrix

823
00:38:41,449 --> 00:38:39,119
it is it's an eternal struggle and

824
00:38:45,289 --> 00:38:41,459
battle I believe between science and

825
00:38:47,390 --> 00:38:45,299
religion that again if you have one of

826
00:38:49,009 --> 00:38:47,400
these experiences it really is the lens

827
00:38:51,739 --> 00:38:49,019
in which you choose to perceive it

828
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:51,749
whatever you decide and choose to accept

829
00:38:55,370 --> 00:38:53,670
in your life as this is what happened to

830
00:38:57,499 --> 00:38:55,380
me I would have to agree Peter that at

831
00:39:00,289 --> 00:38:57,509
this point in my research I don't

832
00:39:02,089 --> 00:39:00,299
necessarily care one way or another this

833
00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:02,099
is what Betty believes happened that's

834
00:39:05,209 --> 00:39:03,689
the story she's going to tell and it's

835
00:39:07,279 --> 00:39:05,219
up to the listener and the other

836
00:39:10,219 --> 00:39:07,289
experiencers to decide if they choose to

837
00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:10,229
believe that or not the other small

838
00:39:13,759 --> 00:39:12,089
thing I did want to bring up in terms of

839
00:39:16,699 --> 00:39:13,769
this case is that one of the family

840
00:39:19,849 --> 00:39:16,709
members came forward in the last few

841
00:39:23,689 --> 00:39:19,859
years or so claiming that they believe

842
00:39:25,209 --> 00:39:23,699
that this entire incident was a hoax

843
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:25,219
perpetrated by Betty

844
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:28,410
unfortunately no in terms of family

845
00:39:33,229 --> 00:39:30,420
members coming forward and and making

846
00:39:35,209 --> 00:39:33,239
these claims what would you say to

847
00:39:37,699 --> 00:39:35,219
someone who is a severe skeptic and

848
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:37,709
would believe that someone would make

849
00:39:41,029 --> 00:39:40,079
this entire thing up and spend the rest

850
00:39:42,289 --> 00:39:41,039
of their life

851
00:39:43,279 --> 00:39:42,299
talking about it like you mentioned

852
00:39:45,459 --> 00:39:43,289
Betty went there were a lot of hard

853
00:39:47,809 --> 00:39:45,469
times after this event happened

854
00:39:50,089 --> 00:39:47,819
family members were lost and whatnot

855
00:39:52,219 --> 00:39:50,099
what do you make of the idea to the

856
00:39:55,069 --> 00:39:52,229
skeptics who say nope none of this it's

857
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:55,079
all complete [\h__\h] well for starters

858
00:40:01,699 --> 00:39:58,650
if somebody has an intention to deceive

859
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:01,709
and they come off as a basically sincere

860
00:40:06,769 --> 00:40:04,079
person commit committed in every respect

861
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:06,779
of behavior and language and

862
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:09,930
pronouncements and work

863
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:12,720
to make it seem the deception they want

864
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:15,510
to perpetrate is actual it's doable for

865
00:40:21,260 --> 00:40:18,240
whatever reasons it seems to be part of

866
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:21,270
human nature that some people are intent

867
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:23,250
on deceiving other people and some

868
00:40:27,710 --> 00:40:25,770
people are very good at it so let me put

869
00:40:32,510 --> 00:40:27,720
it this way much as I like respect

870
00:40:34,730 --> 00:40:32,520
admire Betty if it could be proved to my

871
00:40:37,730 --> 00:40:34,740
satisfaction which is fairly high

872
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:37,740
standard that this family members

873
00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:40,380
allegation were true I'm go gosh that's

874
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:44,040
kind of sad and it happens it does not

875
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:47,730
make other cases or other individuals

876
00:40:52,010 --> 00:40:49,770
who have claimed similar things and had

877
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:52,020
them backed up and scientifically etc

878
00:40:56,359 --> 00:40:54,210
wrong it just means that this person

879
00:41:00,230 --> 00:40:56,369
wasn't telling the truth and was good at

880
00:41:02,170 --> 00:41:00,240
it and perpetrated a fraud yeah those

881
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:02,180
things happen i I think in ufology

882
00:41:06,650 --> 00:41:04,770
they're well in the minority but they

883
00:41:08,569 --> 00:41:06,660
certainly happen I I think that's a good

884
00:41:11,150 --> 00:41:08,579
point to is I spoke to a gentleman

885
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:11,160
recently about being the first person to

886
00:41:15,650 --> 00:41:12,690
ever have witnessed the black-eyed

887
00:41:18,620 --> 00:41:15,660
children-- phenomenon and he told me you

888
00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:18,630
know if if someone could come forward

889
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:20,940
and tell me that they pulled a prank on

890
00:41:25,309 --> 00:41:23,010
me that day or that this was all you

891
00:41:27,710 --> 00:41:25,319
know part of some some elaborate hoax he

892
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:27,720
said please do it please tell me please

893
00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:30,480
prove to me that what I saw was not a

894
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:32,670
genuine experience and I will I will

895
00:41:37,370 --> 00:41:34,650
accept that and I will move on I think

896
00:41:40,430 --> 00:41:37,380
it's important that Betty has never

897
00:41:42,260 --> 00:41:40,440
claimed that oh try to prove me wrong

898
00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:42,270
try to prove me wrong she will say if

899
00:41:47,839 --> 00:41:44,940
you can back up my case with scientific

900
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:47,849
evidence I hope you can but until then

901
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:49,290
this is what I believe happened to me

902
00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:51,510
and that's what I'm going to continue to

903
00:41:55,339 --> 00:41:53,220
believe and I think that's very

904
00:41:56,780 --> 00:41:55,349
important so I would have to agree with

905
00:42:00,380 --> 00:41:56,790
you anyone who believes that this case

906
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:00,390
is 100% a hoax I highly suggest that

907
00:42:05,809 --> 00:42:02,880
they look at the work of Fowler and take

908
00:42:07,609 --> 00:42:05,819
the the opinions and the educated

909
00:42:09,380 --> 00:42:07,619
opinions by people like yourself and

910
00:42:12,049 --> 00:42:09,390
other abduction researchers that

911
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:12,059
something definitely happened to Betty

912
00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:14,160
what exactly that was we may never know

913
00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:16,500
but again we deal with that every day

914
00:42:20,299 --> 00:42:17,790
with this topic

915
00:42:23,230 --> 00:42:20,309
yeah I'm remembering at this point

916
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:23,240
there's no hard statistic of

917
00:42:28,359 --> 00:42:25,490
how many of what type of beings

918
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:28,369
abductees and experiences report having

919
00:42:34,930 --> 00:42:31,970
seen or interfaced or had exchanges with

920
00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:34,940
and if such a statistic alleged to exist

921
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:36,830
we would immediately have to question it

922
00:42:41,770 --> 00:42:38,890
as problematic because there's no way of

923
00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:41,780
actually knowing okay and maybe they'll

924
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:44,030
never be in the years I work with Budd

925
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:47,450
I think we both agreed informally that

926
00:42:54,850 --> 00:42:51,280
of all the reports of beings other

927
00:42:57,940 --> 00:42:54,860
intelligences aliens a word I've never

928
00:43:00,490 --> 00:42:57,950
been comfortable with in this realm etc

929
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:00,500
I don't know three-quarters eighty

930
00:43:06,340 --> 00:43:04,970
percent of them maybe were in the very

931
00:43:09,130 --> 00:43:06,350
much in the range of what we'll call an

932
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:09,140
archetypical gray also it's interesting

933
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:12,770
to note that in the Andreasen affair the

934
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:14,720
beings that we keep dealing with are

935
00:43:18,850 --> 00:43:17,090
these archetypical greys but this book

936
00:43:21,490 --> 00:43:18,860
was written so long ago that that term

937
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:21,500
didn't exist at the time but the other

938
00:43:30,099 --> 00:43:26,210
20% or quarter or so varied wildly once

939
00:43:33,010 --> 00:43:30,109
again was this a function of a fact that

940
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:33,020
there are a whole lot of them and they

941
00:43:38,740 --> 00:43:36,230
look really different and maybe a range

942
00:43:44,170 --> 00:43:38,750
of them fit into the immortally

943
00:43:46,090 --> 00:43:44,180
wonderful Star Wars bar scene or that

944
00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:46,100
they're you know pulsating bits of

945
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:49,310
amoeba that have no relationship or

946
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,310
appearance similarities to humanoids or

947
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:54,800
is this something that is put in the

948
00:43:59,920 --> 00:43:57,290
minds of those involved by these

949
00:44:02,109 --> 00:43:59,930
intelligences for whatever reasons or is

950
00:44:04,990 --> 00:44:02,119
it informed by the physiology and

951
00:44:07,870 --> 00:44:05,000
defensive aspects of human shock or some

952
00:44:12,099 --> 00:44:07,880
combination thereof I am completely sure

953
00:44:13,570 --> 00:44:12,109
that I have no idea I could not agree

954
00:44:15,730 --> 00:44:13,580
with you more my friend and I think

955
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:15,740
that's where I land on this case as well

956
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:18,560
it is fascinating I have no idea yet

957
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:20,000
what to make of it I'm gonna continue

958
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:22,010
looking into it as I'm sure all the

959
00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:23,990
listeners will and I have to thank you

960
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:26,390
for taking the time to come on and talk

961
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,910
through this with me today I value your

962
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:30,800
educated opinion on this as I'm sure the

963
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:33,200
listeners will as well I guess to end

964
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:35,690
you have anything coming up that you can

965
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:37,050
let our listeners know about

966
00:44:43,790 --> 00:44:40,890
right now funny here in the Northeast

967
00:44:46,940 --> 00:44:43,800
where the seasonal change is very visual

968
00:44:50,329 --> 00:44:46,950
as we have come into autumn my schedule

969
00:44:52,220 --> 00:44:50,339
out there speaking in the world is now

970
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:52,230
gone quiet for a while

971
00:44:57,950 --> 00:44:55,680
after a fairly intense late summer in

972
00:45:01,400 --> 00:44:57,960
early autumn and so this is where I go

973
00:45:03,650 --> 00:45:01,410
back to finishing up the book that I

974
00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:03,660
have been working on for a while that

975
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:05,460
will be out sometime next year hopefully

976
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:07,650
early next year begin to look for

977
00:45:14,359 --> 00:45:10,530
speaking jobs also for next year and

978
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:14,369
drafting out a project that I had in

979
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:17,010
mind for some time but need to complete

980
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:19,770
this one on and the odd bits of weather

981
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:22,170
proofing and getting ready for winter

982
00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:24,089
here in central New York nothing you can

983
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:26,790
relate to I'm sure I will tell you one

984
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:28,980
thing my friend adapting to the west

985
00:45:37,970 --> 00:45:31,050
coast has been difficult but I will not

986
00:45:39,859 --> 00:45:37,980
miss this coming winter with that Peter

987
00:45:41,690 --> 00:45:39,869
again thank you for coming on somewhere

988
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:41,700
in this guise today my pleasure and

989
00:45:46,970 --> 00:45:44,490
looking forward to our paths crossing

990
00:45:49,070 --> 00:45:46,980
again next wherever and whenever always

991
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:49,080
always alright that is it for this

992
00:45:54,410 --> 00:45:51,089
week's episode I hope this episode

993
00:45:56,810 --> 00:45:54,420
served as a detailed overview of this

994
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:56,820
hotly debated abduction case whether you

995
00:46:02,690 --> 00:45:59,760
believe want to believe or choose not to

996
00:46:05,180 --> 00:46:02,700
I highly suggest checking out the work

997
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:05,190
of Raymond Fowler on his investigation

998
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:07,890
into betty andreas ins accounts my

999
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:09,690
thanks again to the listeners who shared

1000
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:11,130
their thoughts and I'd still love to

1001
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:13,410
hear what you think of this case visit

1002
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:15,330
the web site somewhere in the skies calm

1003
00:46:20,270 --> 00:46:17,910
and use the contact tab my thanks also

1004
00:46:22,609 --> 00:46:20,280
to Peter Robbins anyone wanting to reach

1005
00:46:24,980 --> 00:46:22,619
out to Peter he is always available on

1006
00:46:26,839 --> 00:46:24,990
Facebook just search for Peter Robbins

1007
00:46:29,180 --> 00:46:26,849
again check us out on Twitter at

1008
00:46:31,609 --> 00:46:29,190
somewhere skies and on Instagram at

1009
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:31,619
somewhere skies pod if you haven't

1010
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:33,810
already please subscribe rate and review

1011
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:36,839
the show on iTunes right now if you do

1012
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:39,030
all three I will send you an official

1013
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1014
00:46:45,079 --> 00:46:42,480
speaking of stickers the somewhere in

1015
00:46:47,839 --> 00:46:45,089
the sky store is open with all types of

1016
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Eduardo Lobo go to T public comm

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1020
00:47:01,760 --> 00:46:59,130
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1021
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:01,770
did today or even choose my guests or be

1022
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on the show yourself these options are

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1024
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1025
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1028
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1029
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sky's next week we are tackling

1030
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:24,840
Hollywood and UFOs in a fascinating and

1031
00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:27,300
entertaining ride with author and

1032
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:30,270
researcher Ravi Graham remember keep

1033
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:32,610
your feet on the ground but never stop

1034
00:47:38,930 --> 00:47:44,090
[Music]

1035
00:47:48,460 --> 00:47:46,480
[Applause]

1036
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:48,470
somewhere in the skies is produced by

1037
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:50,270
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1041
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Hooves at the cottage a show about

1042
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:01,610
getting away being away and all the

1043
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:03,890
things that happen in between if you

1044
00:48:07,390 --> 00:48:05,990
love escaping the city tune in and I

1045
00:48:10,060 --> 00:48:07,400
know this is a touchy subject for us

1046
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:10,070
that would be butter tarts touchy all

1047
00:48:14,350 --> 00:48:12,410
right some say polarizing I love the

1048
00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:14,360
raisin and I love the napkin some people

1049
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:15,230
they go plain

1050
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:17,810
well maybe Jeff wood can settle the

1051
00:48:21,490 --> 00:48:19,850
debate he created the core that

1052
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:21,500
Northumberland butter tart sewer and

1053
00:48:25,990 --> 00:48:23,690
he'll be joining us this summer on who's

1054
00:48:28,450 --> 00:48:26,000
at the cottage available on iTunes

1055
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:28,460
Google Play and online at who's at the